Jordan Cutler, Senior Software Engineer at Pinterest

Speaker 0: If you accept that there will always be room to grow, then there you will never be afraid of feedback.

Speaker 1: Alright, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Trace Talks. We have Jordan with us today. Jordan, I'll let you do an introduction on yourself. Just give us a brief background into who you are, where you're from, maybe your favorite, winter activity since we're recording this during the winter.

And then after that, we'll kind of dive into the conversation.

Speaker 0: Alright. Yeah. Sounds good. Yeah. My name is Jordan.

I'm a senior software engineer. I'm primarily doing front end right now, but I've been all across the stack. I started at, my career, like, my full time career at Gusto. It's about might have been 4, 5 years ago now, something like that. And I quickly, you know, climbed up the ranks to senior engineer.

And, more recently in the past year, I've kind of been writing about that journey, helping, others try to do the same and learn how to level up, go from junior to mid level, then from mid level to senior. And then finally, I've also, you know, just been exploring a bunch of different avenues. One of them right now is a is a course. So I've, you know, started doing, teaching through a cohort course on on Maven, and it's called mid level to senior engineer. I forget if I mentioned that I'm from Philly, but, my favorite, winter activity is probably stumbling through the snow as I'm walking to anywhere I wanna try to get to, because I refuse to wear anything other than my sneakers.

So

Speaker 1: You you get the crunch the crunch under your sneakers.

Speaker 0: Yeah.

Speaker 1: But, yes, thanks so much for the introduction. It's so funny to hear somebody say, you know, back at the beginning of my career, and you said 4 or 5 years ago. When I say that phrase, that was 15 years ago. So, what a what a yeah. I think that'd be a great place to start.

You know? You you've advanced pretty quickly in your career and as as a software engineer. So if you could, let us know about 4 or 5 years ago at the beginning of your career journey. Let us understand how you made that that quick trajectory from junior engineer, essentially, to senior engineer so quickly.

Speaker 0: Yeah. Well, I mean, it's it's not all sunshine and rainbows. I mean, in fact, like, when I first started my first job at Gusto, I was kind of feeling a bit of imposter syndrome, because, before that I had done 2 Twitter internships, which you might think, wow, you did 2 Twitter internships and you're feeling imposter syndrome? Well, the thing is is on, you know, on that second Twitter internship, I didn't get a return offer. And, you know, that was kinda like a devastating blow to, oh my gosh.

Like, am I gonna be you you you thought you had everything sort of figured out and then it's like, oh, you know, is there something wrong with me? What did I what did I do wrong? Am I gonna get a job at one of these places that I've always dreamt about and all that stuff? And, to get the job at Gusto, I I was very excited, but at the same time, I was scared that the same thing would happen again. You know, maybe they let go of me within 3 months or something like that.

So I I I took a lot of the lessons from that experience and what I feel like I did wrong, to not get that return offer going into Gusto. It was almost sort of a blessing in a way. I mean, like, I mean, I I as long as you learn from it. Right? And so one of the things that I remember distinctly sort of being one of my, like, guiding principles is to not try to, like, overshoot too much, and instead to just, like, try to be normal.

Like, try to be, like, a normal person in the team, but, like, show how you're kinda contributing. Right? Like, rather than try to be the hero, you know, always and, you know, try to appear like you're smarter than you are or anything like that. Instead, I just felt like, I tried to be the contributing, you know, entry level member of the team, respecting the people, you know, above me, their opinion, and, you know, what what guidance they have, doing the projects that are assigned to me, and just doing them really well rather than trying to, you know, like, change the whole system and, you know, be better, you know, and, like, that that can be done later when maybe, you know, you're at the staff level and, like, you really need to improve things from a foundational perspective.

Speaker 2: Yeah. You you speak to, something that we don't typically talk about on this podcast, but something that we all deal with every day, which is sort of rejection or our ideas of rejection. Like, you maybe thought you were on this course to do this one thing. And like you said, fortunately, it led you this other path, and and and it turned out to be probably or maybe the better scenario. But we we all face, like, a lot of rejection in our lives, especially John and I, you know, in on the sales side.

Of course, it's, like, 90% dealing with rejection, which is just part of the job. But, it'd be interesting to know, you know, through that first of all, with the the Twitter experience, was it was it a a rejection of you, or was that just that your interpretation of it at the time? Or maybe there were external factors that contributed to it that it really wasn't like, oh, I didn't get the callback. It had nothing to do with me. It was maybe organization restructuring or, like, something else.

And speak to, like, the psychology of of that. Like, damn, this is a crushing blow to me, but maybe it actually doesn't have anything to do with me.

Speaker 0: Yeah. Definitely. I mean, there there was some elements at the time where, I wasn't really sure about it a 100 percent because there was other people who didn't get the offer as well. And there were, I think, talks of, like, maybe there were certain limitations on the number of return offers, that they they could give for some reason. But I do know that even in those circumstances, even if maybe you are, you know, it's almost kinda like when you hit the end of the year, and you just, like, start to have that mindset shift of, like, alright, what are my goals gonna be, you know, for the the next year?

Like, it's kinda like that in a way where it's just kinda a reality check regardless where it's, you know, what what could I have done better? So that way, regardless of the situation from Twitter's end, I could have done my part the best that I possibly could. And I don't feel like I did like, if I take that time to reflect on that, there were tons of things that I felt like I I could have done better, on that end.

Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think maybe that's the the takeaway here. It's really about, like, whether it's, you know, wholly our responsibility or not, it's we can at least learn from these things and taking the time to reflect can make us grow. Like, every time we're, you know, I lose an opportunity or something like that, I'd take a sit down and say, like, okay. What part of this was in my control?

What part was out of my control? And how can I, you know, improve myself in the future so that this I can minimize this at least from the things that are in my control? So it sounds like it's, you know, reflecting is that valuable time you do after something like that that kinda sets you up for the next stage of the career, I guess.

Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I would say that that's a that's a huge, like, lesson in general as part of the career growth. There's always gonna be tons of things that aren't in your control.

I mean, just to give, like, a practical example, I wrote, like, a post yesterday about estimates. A lot of people complain about when you give estimates, people interpret it as deadlines. Well, what are you doing maybe that could potentially give that impression? You know, maybe if you like, someone asked you, hey. How long do you think like this would take?

And you say it in a way where it's like, I think if I worked on it, it would take me, like, 3 days. And, like, if you say it like that versus, well, if I were to just give a rough ballpark number right now, then, you know, my guess would be 3 days. But if you wanted me to give you a more accurate number, then let you know, give me some time to to look into it. Like, if you say it like that, well, then it's a much different impression that the person receives. And so even if you could blame them for, you know, can't you know, making it a deadline when it really wasn't, well, what what could you do, like, on your part to make sure that that's as clear as possible?

Speaker 2: Yeah. Like, basically, don't pull an Elon and tell everyone full self driving is coming in a year when it's 2016.

Speaker 0: Uh-huh. Exactly.

Speaker 1: Well, at least at least the Cybertruck finally came out. You know, it might have taken 4 years for that, but it's here. You you mentioned your, you you mentioned writing a post, and I I think that's a good segue into who you are publicly. You know, you are, I guess, a engineer influencer. I don't I don't even know what those terms are anymore.

But, I I've read a lot of your articles, and I think there's a lot of lessons that you you share, you know, about being a go to player and and taking rejection and all of those types of posts. Why did you originally start posting to social media and LinkedIn, and then you now have a, a newsletter that goes out? So I'd love to understand how I I typically perceive engineers as a little bit kind of quieter and typically don't post those types of things. But was it some of the lessons that you learned early on that made you want to be more social and share those experiences, or was there different reason that you started posting and and started the newsletter?

Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a great question. I mean, it's it's hard to pinpoint, like, one exact thing, but I do remember, like, where it started. And, you know, the it started from, one single post, and it had nothing to do with, like, what I write about now, actually.

It was, you know, it was on accessibility, like, alt text. And, I think, like, at the time, I was thinking that previously at at my, you know, at Gusto, I had started a channel that was called, Jordan's Front End Learnings, and it was essentially like, me just taking notes, but, like, kinda sharing it in a way that could be consumed, like, more broadly rather than just, like, a brain dump, you know, of things. And it would almost be, like, little mini lessons. And I would, like, write, you know, in there as I learn stuff because I wanted to learn more about front end. And, like, over time, you know, people started to join that, And, it kinda opened my eyes a little bit of, like, oh, okay.

Like, people like, I'm not even really trying. And people seem to enjoy some of these, like, this sort of, like, learning community, you know, like, and eventually it got up to, like, 50 people and it started, you know, from 0 where I'm just like not even advertising it, like just kind of spread through word-of-mouth a little bit. And it made me think, well, like, if I'm doing this, like, on a company scale, like, what if I try this out, like, more broadly? And that's kinda why, like, my first post was a little bit, like, about front end because Yeah. I was just like, well, let me think, like, okay.

I wrote about front end before. Let me, like, write about front end here. And then that first post, it got, like, 30 plus, you know, likes on LinkedIn. And I was like, oh my gosh. Like, this is already, like, more than my front end learning channel, you know.

So then I just sort of, like, continued a little bit, but I I was thinking, well, you know, this is good. Like, I can write about front end, but long term, I think, like, the thing that kind of makes me stand out is maybe more of my career journey and it also has, like, more of a broader audience. And, I mean, I've always, like, been into, like, a couple things, like, one, like, the Feynman technique of, you know, like, you teach and you learn it better. And then also just in general, like, I think if I wasn't gonna be an engineer, I've always talked about, like, being a teacher, But, unfortunately, like, teachers are not really paid that way.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 0: So so, like, this is kinda like a win win on that boat, you know, where I could get get the benefits there, kinda do what I, you know, wanted to. And I've kinda just continued from there, and I have made, like, small iterative tweaks to how I do things. But, I mean, I'm still generally just doing the same thing as I did, you know, day 1.

Speaker 1: Yeah. That really reminds me, it takes me back to to my elementary school days when the teacher is teaching something and they asked, does anybody have any questions? And you're hoping that one person asks a question because everybody's asking the same question. So being a being that person who shares that that front end experience, you know, even about alt text or whatever, you whatever your learnings are, I kind of equate you to that purse that kid in in elementary school who raised their hand and asked the question that everybody had because I was the kid who was kind of scared that I would look dumb if I asked a question. Were you that type of kid in school?

Speaker 0: It's so funny you mentioned that because, yeah, I definitely was. Like, there was even I had a elementary school teacher that was, you know, like, I remember I raised my hand at one point and he kind of made like a joking, like, tantrum a little bit where it was like, oh, Jordan. Okay. What is it now? You know?

What is the color of the sky? Like, what is it? You know? Like, and he just, like, started asking, like, a bunch of, like, rent like, questions kinda, like, making fun of me a little bit. But, I mean, I didn't take it to heart.

I think we're Yeah. We kinda, you know, we had a decent relationship, I suppose. But, yeah, it was to the point where someone even made fun of me for it.

Speaker 1: Even a teacher. Yeah. Yeah. No. I think that's a I think that's a trait that a lot of us have in common.

It's kind of you wanna understand is it's kind of a curiosity almost. Do you do you find that that's actually an important trait to have as an engineer is curiosity? And then how important do you think it is to ask questions that you feel might make you look dumb, but it's important to ask the questions so that you understand what you're trying to learn.

Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I curiosity, and just, you know, this is part of curiosity, but, like, the willingness to not just look at the surface level and accept it for what it is is super important. One of the things that I, that I teach, like, in my course about, like, senior level coding is that you are constantly thinking about, like, if you use maybe a library, you know, an external tool or something like that, how, like, how does this thing actually work?

Like, you're not just accepting it for, like, a black box, right? Like, when you use chat gpt, what is it actually doing behind the scenes? And if you, like, think about, like, those types of things, like, enough, then over time you start to build kind of like a like a mental model or like a mental map in your head of like, oh, okay. Yeah. Like this thing is kind of similar to this thing.

I expect it to work in this certain way. And because I can, like, make that assumption, I might even just be able to, like, try this method and see if it exists. And, like, you know, I don't even need to look at the docs. And, like, I Yeah. I have a feeling, like, that this is gonna work this way.

And, or, like, if you need to build a similar tool yourself, you kinda already have an idea, you know, of of how you're gonna do it and you can, you know, form the architecture for it or ace your interview because they'll ask you like, hey, design Netflix. And if you've thought enough, like, while you're watching Netflix, like, how is the video streaming, you know, to my to my TV right now? Then Yeah. Maybe you have a decent idea of, like, you know, how you'll be able to do it in an interview. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Right. Yeah. And I I think, like, just to add to that, like, curiosity is a big element of that, especially with engineering. And I think the more that you like you said, the more that you dive into, like, the what, why, and how. Of course, there's gonna be questions that sound stupid and elementary and basic around it.

Right? But, they're important questions to get you to dive a bit deeper. Right? And and they're just, like, instinctual things. Like, oh, I just wanna know how this works.

Right? And sometimes those instinctual things to to me and and to many people are the things that actually end up being these big light bulb moments. At least in I I always relate things back to music because I was, like, sort of the first career path I had. And it was always funny to me to learn that, like, some of these really big number one hits. Right?

Like, Guns N' Roses, for example, Sweet Child of Mine, that riff was written as a total joke because they had gone to, like they had gone out to Vegas and the casinos, and Slash is just writing this, like, oh, this is what the slot machines sound like. And they just it was a pure joke, and they gave it to the label, and they're like, this is the best song, you know, you guys have. And and they're like, no. We're not releasing this. This is like a joke.

But sometimes the point is that, like, these through these, like, initial, like they're just, like, gut instincts, and you treat them as that. You don't, like, you know, you don't put too much weight and judge them. They're just, like, these ideas that once you put them out, it's like, oh, actually, that's that's the brilliant idea. It's not the stupid idea. Right?

That's the brilliant question that led you down the path, not the stupid question. So maybe, yeah, maybe it's it's best that we don't, like, put others' judgment into these things because that can just, like, stop us right there and kill the curiosity.

Speaker 0: Yeah. Exactly. And don't, yeah, don't let it die for

Speaker 2: sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Do do you find that your community you've built, you know, a a decent a good sized following, about 40,000 times bigger than mine. But do you find that your community, leads you to new tools and new technologies? I'm sure you're out there kind of seeing things that are new on the market or people are sharing, but do you find that one of the benefits of having this community is people sharing back things that you then become curious about? Is that the feedback that you're getting from your community?

Speaker 0: Mhmm. Yeah. It's Or

Speaker 1: or are they just silent listeners?

Speaker 0: Definitely not silent listeners, but, I mean, I I think I do get questions sometimes about, like, oh, you know, like, have you have you heard about this tool? Have you tried this tool or something like that? And I think one downside, honestly, you know, because a lot of people reach out to me and they'll they'll say also that they were inspired by my journey to start content creation. It doesn't come without its downsides. It for sure.

Like, one of the downsides that I've personally experienced is you lose a lot of time to actually especially if you're talking about, like, career growth stuff, more like soft skills, you lose a lot of time to dive into some of those, like, more technical, like, alright. Let me figure out, like, how, you know, Next. Js versus Vite versus Solid. Js, like, all these things, like, work. Like, the most, you know, that I can really do a lot of the time is maybe watch a video, you know, on some some person that's kinda already done that deep dive, and I can't really, like, do it myself.

You know? So it is something that I wish I could, like I'm trying to sort out and actually, maybe, hopefully, like, if I can figure out how to use AI to save some time on some of the things that I do, then maybe I'll be able to get some time back on

Speaker 2: that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Has sorry.

I was gonna ask, did has the the high growth engineer, right, your your newsletter, has that led you to meet anyone interesting or inspiring that maybe somebody that you've looked up to or just someone notable in the community?

Speaker 0: Oh, yeah. Yeah. That I mean, that would I would say would be, like, one of the biggest benefits. I mean, just like a couple off the top of my head, would be, like, Gregor, you know, the engineering leadership guy, Caleb, John Cricket, Wes Kao, the founders, like, at at Plato. It was like a mentorship platform.

Through that, like, I was able to, get, an opportunity to emcee at a conference that they held in San Francisco. I they would have never known about me if I didn't write online or anything like that. And then through that conference, I met, like, a bunch of senior engineering leaders, you know, like VPs of engineering. I met a director of engineering at Netflix, Bruce, a a bunch of other, you know, people as well. Oh, one one 2 more quick shout outs too on people.

Ryan Peterman, he's a staff engineer at at Meta. Ravi Raj Achar, he's, like, tech lead mentor. And he him and Irina, Irina Stanescu, they have also base essentially, like, participated in my course as guests, and they just, like, do it out of the goodness of their heart. Like, because we're, you know, connected, we help each other out and all that stuff, that helps like improve the value of my course as well. People love them, you know, when, when they're there, it's like super awesome to be like, hey

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 0: I I have like a past, you know, engineering manager and stat like staff engineer, like at Meta, Google, Uber, like all this stuff. And they're like, you know, they're just like their eye all the students in the course, like, their eyes light up and everything. You know?

Speaker 2: Yeah. That that really speaks to, like we we had spoken to someone else on this podcast, maybe a few episodes ago, but one of the key takeaways is, like, get out there, meet people, like, be a part of the community, like, shake some hands. Right? Because networking is something that's never gonna go away, and it's even actually increasingly more important to meet people in real life. So it sounds like you've definitely benefited from the, you know, the publicity or the or the the exposure that you've gotten online, but actually converted that into, like, actual handshakes, which is really impressive and, like, I think a great way to build your career, especially, like, you know, at at a at a younger age too.

Speaker 0: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. It's it's it's amazing. Yeah.

And one one interesting insight that I've found about networking, especially because, like, you know, I guess within the creator space, normally, it's kind of about, when you help people, you get help in return. Right? Like, the you know, maybe you give someone a shout out and they'll be like, oh, wow. Like, I didn't even know about you before, but, like, you're giving me a shout out. That's super cool.

Let me check out your stuff. Oh, yeah. I'll, like, I'd love to, like, add you as a shout out. And so it's kinda like cool that you've realized that networking really is about, like, giving value first and then, like, getting value back. And, it's not like, hey, you know, tell me about your life story.

I'm here as, like, a person that you can talk to even though you know nothing about, like, you don't you don't know me at all. And then, like, after you tell me your life story, can I ask you, like, for a job? You know? Yeah. It's nothing it's nothing like about that.

Speaker 2: Sounds like the typical LinkedIn message. Yeah.

Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But the the thing that I found particularly especially as I help other people is, like, it's a little easier for me to kind of do that giving value thing when I have something like, you know, my audience, my LinkedIn post, my newsletter thing, all that stuff.

But I I could see it being difficult for someone that is maybe, like, just getting started in the industry or something like that and it's, like, you know, maybe they just, like, my my just view of it from from where I'm looking, it doesn't look like they have that much to give. But I also don't know, You know, if they like, that's the high level principle. If you can find something to give, then you're good. But I don't I don't really know, like, what I can suggest to them. That's part of the issue that I run into when I try to help people with that.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you so looking back at your quick journey from junior engineer to senior engineer and building this audience, you know, what do you did you have this where you're at now, did you kind of have this as a goal back 4 or 5 years ago? And then what is your goal for the next 5 years? You mentioned love the love for teaching, and you would do teaching if it was more, lucrative. But, you know, where do you do you wanna move further into leadership and become even more of a mentor for people who are both in your company but also external, or would you rather go down the content creation leader or teacher type, journey?

Speaker 0: Yeah. I I think the content creation, it needs to come from your actual experience. If maybe I wanted to write, you know, indefinitely about how to become a senior engineer because that's where I am right now, right, then I could leave my, you know, leave my job maybe and try this out. But, like, I you know, it would be, it would be, like, inauthentic of me to try to expand outward and say, hey. Here's how you go from senior engineer to staff engineer.

Here's how you go from, you know, senior engineer to manager. I haven't tried those things out. So Yeah. I think one of the unique things that, like, I, bring to the table, like, as a creator is I do have, like, a wide range of experiences in a short amount of time. Like, I, you know, I I worked at Twitter as, like, internship.

I got I got rejected, like, on my like, I got I also I got the return offer, but I also got rejected. So I, like, I know what that both of those, like, feel like. And I also, like, worked at a startup, you know, crypto startup, like, 3, 4 person thing, you know, like, while I was in university. And then, like, I did Gusto, which was, like, medium size. So, like, just in those 3 alone, I basically have, like, all the different sizes.

Like, I have, like, super small, like, Gusto, like, medium size, Twitter, like, you know, bigger. And then now I'm kinda, like, in between, like, 0 and gusto size right now. I qualified.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 0: So I think, like, if I could just keep on, you know, varying the experiences up and and, like, you know, just just add to the repertoire of different things that I've tried, then, it'll probably, you know, make me just be able to relate to pretty much anybody, hopefully, and and keep writing about, you know, things that that hopefully provide value to people.

Speaker 1: Yeah. No. That's that's such a great point is continuing on the the leadership to, you know, higher positions will naturally create that content that other people are looking for. So it's it's almost like you don't have to make that decision, yet you just kind of continue the path that you've been on, and both will come naturally naturally because it sounds like you're a hard worker and you're curious and that that from what who we've who we've talked to before for this podcast and just from our own personal experiences, that's the kind of things that it takes to continue climbing up in the ranks. And so that's such a good point that you don't have to make that decision.

You just keep going where what you're doing, and both will naturally come. So

Speaker 2: Yeah. The inspiration for the content will seem to generate itself. Right? And then it's just, like, translating that experience into content.

Speaker 0: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I I feel like it would it would be, difficult to come up with ideas, you know, after you're, like, you know, not, you know, in a tech working environment for, you know, the 8 hours a day. At the same time, though, it is it is a lot of work, to do both.

So so I don't know. I'm gonna try to figure out something, but, you know, for TBD.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, there's one position that it sounds like you haven't had, and that is founder of a company. So True. Yeah. Maybe if, you know, you are your founder of your content, but maybe you've been at a startup, but you haven't been the founder.

So maybe that's in your journey eventually. Yeah. So so, you know, what have you learned over the years? What would be some good advice that you give to people who are listening? Pretend that the listeners are are you're their mentor?

You know? What would you what advice would you give them from your experience?

Speaker 0: Well, so it's tough to give any general advice because every depending on the stage of your career, the advice is gonna be, you know, different. But if I had to give, like, something, you know, maybe to everyone, then I would say, one one really nice takeaway is if you accept that there will always be room to grow, then there you will never be afraid of feedback. And, you know, one way that that kinda sees itself is, a lot of time, you know, we're scared to ask our peers, you know, for feedback or say, hey. How did I do, like, in that presentation? Or, like, how do you how do you feel like, do you feel like I could have done anything better, like, in that meeting that I just ran?

Or, you know, like, how was my how did I how did I do leading this project or something like that? Or, like, just anything like that. A lot of times, we're a little scared to ask. And understandably, you know, we all kinda put our we we put our best foot forward and we we we don't wanna hear that potential that we didn't do as best as we can. But at the same time, the the those two things, like, you can put your best foot forward and you can also always grow.

So if you accept that, then you'll constantly seek out that feedback, and you'll also constantly be growing.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow. I might just put that phrase on my wall, you know, because that that's actually some really, really good advice. You know? So that's very good advice that was that was very generic for generic questions.

So well well said. Hopefully, broadly applicable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Awesome. So I guess, you know, we'll we'll wrap it up here. It's been a awesome conversation. But, you know, we've mentioned throughout the conversation some of the things that you're doing, but, obviously, we want people to be, followers of you because you're putting out good things. You're putting out good advice, good content.

So where can people find you? You know? Where what is the courses that you teach? What is your newsletter? Just repeat that.

And then if people wanna follow you in other places, where where are you?

Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So, LinkedIn is the main place where I post every day, you know, updates on kinda everything. So just search Jordan Cutler on LinkedIn.

The newsletter is called high growth engineer. And the course, if you're interested in that, I don't think I will be running that many more cohorts. I think I'm gonna explore different avenues. So try to get in either on this upcoming cohort, although I don't know when the podcast will be out Yep. Or the next one might be my last one.

We'll see. And that one is called mid level to senior engineer, on Maven.

Speaker 1: Okay. Awesome. Well, any any last questions from you, Pedro? I feel like I just took over that end.

Speaker 2: No. That's that's amazing. Definitely excited to to continue following your journey as I'm sure most of the, you know, the viewers and the listeners are as well. And, yeah, so subscribe. Right?

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I think I think the last word I'll say is I think it's really motivational. There's a lot of young engineers out there and and even older engineers too, so I don't wanna pigeonhole into young engineers who they're curious and they wanna learn. And so I think some of the articles that you've put out about, you know, being a go to in a specific, field or a specific piece of content or what it what may it be.

But, it's really, encouraging to see somebody who's younger than me who puts in the effort and has had the success that, they can then share with other people. So it's been a fantastic conversation.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Definitely appreciate it.

Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah. It's been great, guys. I really appreciate it.