A Chat With Ali Payne

Speaker 0: Someone is working constantly just in a different time zone. But it would be nice if you could just go in there and pair program with them with the VR headset, just sitting back on your couch air typing. I mean, if they don't automate our job before that. But hey.

Speaker 1: Hey, I'm Pedro, and we got Jonathan here and Ollie. Welcome to another episode of Trace Talks, where we interview some thought leadership and engineers on their experience, and hopefully learn something along the way. So, yeah. Ollie, I'd I'd like to give you the opportunity to introduce yourself and maybe a quick, you know, minute, 60 second background, and we'll dive right in.

Speaker 0: Quick background. I'm a lead engineer currently at, Stitch Fix. I've done everything from front end, back end, data engineering, CTO, startups, big companies, contracting. And, hey. I enjoy what I do.

What more can I say?

Speaker 1: That's awesome. Yeah. John John, I'm gonna go ahead and take Yeah.

Speaker 2: And I I'd love to understand, I guess, since you love what you do, we we have these conversations, and everyone seems to love a different, a different reason why they do what they do, but we can just start there. You know, what what, you know, what got you into engineering, and and why you love it?

Speaker 0: Funny enough, I got into engineering through recruiting. My very first job, I I my first year is in psychology. I was always interested in people, and I worked for a recruiting firm that actually built their own proprietary software. And from there, I kinda found out that you could build anything, and you could put it online and anyone could see it. So that's kinda what got me, started and interested.

Prior to that, I didn't really have any any idea, to be honest with you. To answer the question, like, what gets me interested is I I look at technical problems or just problems in general as solving a puzzle. And being in technology, you get to solve puzzles in the comfort of your own home.

Speaker 2: Or in a hotel room. Either either where wherever you are.

Speaker 0: Hey. Remote is remote in today's world.

Speaker 1: Yeah. For sure. 1st, for some of those early engineering projects and, like, as you started to get into into engineering, was there any overlap between psychology and engineering that you sort of took advantage of or explored in those early days as you made that transition?

Speaker 0: I will say one thing that psychology majoring psychology or even taking psychology serious, just human interaction in general, I think has been the one differentiating factor for me in an engineering career. Like, no matter where I've gone and I I did my fair job shop or job hopping. I'm not gonna lie. But no matter where I got, I was enough of a communicator to be able to galvanize the troops. Or, you know, like, make the friends you needed to make, find out who is the who, and then just get the conversations going about, hey.

Can we get the troops going to do something fun? Or, like, can we, like, gear our engineers against the project managers in some regard? Not for, like, a negative, but just to be like, you know, there's some smart people that just don't say anything just because, you know, the, you know, we're engineers. We're we're here to not talk.

Speaker 2: That must be a different experience because our engineers love to talk. They love to tell jokes.

Speaker 0: Well, I mean, once you get them going, they won't shut up. But, you know, the initial you know, like, I I one of the best people I ever worked with. He had to train himself, to look people in the eye. And, you know, just from the aspect spectrum of just how people think, it's not too infrequent that you get someone who's not like the the stellar communicator, but is a wiz problem solver.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Was was this person someone who is like a mentor to you, or was it someone you just worked with?

Speaker 0: It was my favorite mentor, my number one mentor, Doug himself. And, I'll say that one of the the best lessons I learned from him, at least mentoring others, is sometimes the best direction in leadership is none at all. To see where you land and just help.

Speaker 1: Just get out of the way.

Speaker 0: Get out of the way, let you fail, and then come around and be like, hey. Do you need help? I gotcha.

Speaker 2: Is that a style of leadership that you you like where you would prefer it? You know, obviously, there's times where you would want a little bit more interaction with leadership, your leadership. But as you've climbed the ranks and gone from place to place, is that something that you react more openly to, a leader who kind of lets you do your thing? Or would you prefer or is it a case by case scenario where some projects you need a little bit more hands on? And then I guess as you're starting to be a lead engineer yourself or as you're in this role now, for people who kind of look up to you in a leadership role or as your as their mentor, do you lead them the same way as well?

Speaker 0: I'll say my leadership style is just a little it's a little different, because I also did, like, coaching. I played sports a while, a long time. And and I like to one of the biggest lessons I learned in any leadership is, like, people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. And oftentimes for them to find that out, they have to put themselves in a bad position. And in engineering, nothing better than a deadline, missing a deadline, or telling some project manager that you completely understood the scope.

And then once that happens, you can guide people into your loving support and care as a leader and then groom them. And once they can see you as that type of caring individual, not to say that it's a a facade or anything. It's it's a genuine care. It's just that that's kinda how I've learned to lead in a more of a passive passive way. I mean, everyone likes if you can do the work, you know, but if you can make an excuse for someone to make them look like a hero, hey.

That's real leadership.

Speaker 1: Yeah. That's awesome.

Speaker 2: Yeah. And you're probably one of the first people we've talked to who's been who who has mentioned sports in the background. You know? I played sports when I was a kid. We have someone on our team who actually was a former NFL player.

We find that those types of people, they understand, number 1, how to be a team player. They know hard work because you can't play sports without working hard or you're not gonna play it long. But you also they also seem to understand when to step up and when to step up into a leadership role, whether it's temporarily or permanently as a captain or something like that. So I guess is that something that you think came from your sports background, or is that something that you think you had before sports? It helped you enjoy sports a little bit more, and it's just transitioned into the current place that you're at now.

Speaker 0: Well, I'll say this. When I was a kid, I was uncoachable. I was that uncoachable guy where he's like, why is he on the bench, man? He's so good. Uncoachable.

You know? Just knew everything. So, you know, as you age, you mature, and I got to do this a little bit more than I got to do sports, I feel. And I've just come to that conclusion, you know, that that, like, some of I don't know who quotes it, but some people say, like, you don't hire smart people to tell them what to do. You hire smart people to figure out your problems.

And most of the people I've worked with, I I've been on, like, excellent teams or all of them have been smarter than me. I might just be able to articulate a little bit better their idea or their concept. But when you don't want the credit and you just want the team to win, like, that's how you build things. And it's just an interesting perspective from you know, you go to engineering. Most people that have been engineers their whole life, you know, it's kind of a set like, a solo pursuit.

You know? You you you find them with the computer. Like, I'm on the computer all day. I don't get to talk to people. But then, like, if you can reach out and it's like, no.

Let's do a community. Like, one of the best team building things I ever did, was at a startup at Zipseam, and we went and saw Deadpool together. And it's like I yeah. I still got memories from that. You know what I mean?

And it's just, I don't know. Everything's about team building at the end of the day. And it's and and all the problems that we all have, all the industries are all the same. It's all communication. Anything solvable.

It's just can we communicate with each other, and can we make each other feel all wanted and put each other in the right positions.

Speaker 1: Yeah. If you were to if you were to rank like the things you do as a leader, for your team, like, do you think those team bonding experiences, those team outings are the things that really foster that, sense of community and and, and creativity within the team that'll then allow you to work better together on on certain projects. Like, how does that you know, how would you stack that up against some of the other things that we've been talking about?

Speaker 0: Well, one of my favorite teams I ever went on, we all came from a different background. Every single one of us was from a different background. But we went out to eat every day. Like, not every day because, you know, you can't eat out every day, but, you know, we ate out a lot, and we spent a lot of time together. And the project we might have been working on varied.

It was contracting various data things. But what brought us together was just coming together and bonding kinda like how a family has dinner today. Well, you know, you'd want to have dinner every night, you know, groom your children for whatever, but it's it it seems like it's just time spent together. And one of, like, the industry issues, at least since I've jumped around, I've been part of the issue, is is really interesting is it's like a lot of these legacy systems, a lot of these long built building things are just they couldn't keep their original engineers there, so we're all resolving the same problems. You know, but that that's just life.

So I just think it's just anything about time spent together. Like, it seems like you guys got a pretty good bond together. Had there been time spent together in the trenches. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah. That brings up a good question because Pedro and I have have we've been around the block together. We've been in 3 places together. Matt is now part of our trio. We've we've inherited him, one of our marketing guys.

But how do you find that that's how do you find to do that in the remote world that we're in? Because Pedro's in LA. I'm in Nashville. Some other coworkers are in New York or DC. And when we're in when we're in person, there is that it it feels like no time has passed, and we're on calls all the time together or we'll message each other all all the time.

But, you know, we're we're we're sales guys by heart. You know, we have some other skills as well. But how do you find that that works with engineers who are typically in their in their houses and like to be remote and stay quiet a lot of times? How do you build that camaraderie or that team in a remote world?

Speaker 0: Well, some of it, like I mean, we had a, I think it was this Christmas. We had, like, a, you know, a Christmas day. Just online playing games, you know, bingo, bang, playing games, just talking together or just like our daily meetings. Right now, I'm on a team where we have Colorado. We have Austin.

We have Michigan. I'm in Ohio or Nevada. And then we got, you know, San Francisco. And it and it's, like, interesting things that happen, like, not to be negative, but, like, the Amber alert. That go off for 1 of us, then it goes off for all of us, or, like, the weather or even, like, you know, local events that are happening, and you can just kinda engage yourself with other people.

And it allows you to be, I would say, like, a more well versed person just, like, nationally. And then it it kind of buys into, like, hey. You know? No. I got my friend in I got my friend in Texas, man.

Like, what this is what's going on on the ground. And I think that's the way to kind of build it. And it and it's like, you you have to think, my little brother, like, during the COVID, had to go remote school. You know? I mean, he's 1st grade, just typing on a computer all day.

And, like, I I hate to tell people, well, this is just the world that we're probably gonna live in. Yep. So we might as well take advantage of it. And truth is if you look at, like, the statistics or the studies behind remote working, which a a lot of executives probably won't bring up, but you'll work more remote than you will actually in the office. Like, I'll find myself here late at night.

Just gotta get it done. Gotta get it done. And you turn your office or your house into your own you know, you're working around the clock. So it's a catch 22. It's an interesting conversation.

But I see you just build build teams by being together. You know, being a person, being normal.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I definitely feel that. I I actually have to in my office, I have my lights programmed to change color at, a certain time so that I make sure to, like, hit the gym. And, of course, sometimes I'll ignore it, but it's just, like, at least having that mental marker, like, well, I was supposed to stop working about 30 minutes ago because I gotta start working again in a couple hours and take a call with, somebody in Malaysia or something.

But, yeah, I like what you're saying about, like, these these team outings, especially about the gaming thing. Like, I know a lot of friends who connect with their coworkers, through gaming, through playing games together online and stuff. And like you said, it's it is the world we live in, and I guess that's the the bet that companies like, you know, Meta are taking that maybe this is it's trying to bring that in person experience into the online world with, like, VR and stuff. And I don't know. Like, do what what's your perspective on on that?

Do you think that VR and these kind of future technologies can can accomplish that same goal of, like, going to all see Deadpool together, you know, but, like, in a headset or, like, the Apple with the Vision Pro coming out, that sort of thing?

Speaker 0: So interestingly enough, I, like, I wasn't sold on it at first. Right? Even though I had, like, one of those VR boys back in the day where I'd play tennis on it and everything. I was never sold Tango 1? Yeah.

It was like a Yeah. Virtual Boy, I think.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Virtual Boy.

Speaker 0: But I so I was never sold on it. But then so I'm out here in Vegas, and I went to see, King Tut, a virtual 3 d, thing down at, I think, Mandolin Bay. And you put the goggles on it, and it's the Oculus, and you're exploring Egypt. Just walking around, just playing with things. And then, like, my friend had one of those PlayStation VRs, and you could cook and you could do the the everything in it.

And it's like I've seen some of the things where you could actually set up your office 3 d in a manner. And, like, I could have my 9 monitors or how we're monitors, and I could be in a virtual workplace together with people. So for for in that regard, like, kinda like NFTs or even cryptocurrencies. It's the utility of it, not the actual concept of it, I think. And I think more and more people will because there's there's just things like because we're so remote, like, we're in different time zones.

Like, we even have contractors in the Philippines. So we're like, someone is working constantly just in a different time zone. But it would be nice if you could just go in there and pair program with them with the VR headset, just sitting back on your couch, air typing. I mean, if they don't automate our job before that but hey.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 0: You know? I I love the the VR aspect of that.

Speaker 1: Yeah. No. I I like what you're saying about the utility of it. Right? Like, the technology, the hardware, the software, that's all clearly going to get there to a point where it's like, you know, that you can't tell the difference between that and real life essentially, but it's it's the utility in the application, like, what are the companies going to build, to actually be able to do in there and and actually make you feel more together, in a not so cartoonish way.

Right?

Speaker 0: Yeah. Like, even us just using faces with our with the podcast. I mean, I feel more connected to you than if it's not. And a lot of policies that we're putting in place at Stitch Fix is you have to turn on your camera. You know?

Like, I wanna see your facial expressions because I wanna know if this is a terrible idea.

Speaker 1: You know? Right.

Speaker 2: Or maybe you shouldn't know. But, yeah, I think there's I think I think there's some things where it makes sense. You know? Like, maybe watching a movie with a friend who's across the country or across the globe. But you're in Vegas.

I don't think I ever wanna miss the feeling of the the the slots hitting or playing craps. I don't think I could do that virtually. Yeah, I think there's some things that would be easily moved into the a fake world or a a VR world. There's some things that I feel like just should never never be replaced. So I'm kinda curious to see where that goes.

I I used to work for Apple, and the VisionPRO certainly interests me, but I don't know. It's starting to get creepy how real stuff looks. But but, yeah, you mentioned your 9 monitors. Like, if you if you could have your entire room just full of monitors, you're. But then again, we're already I think all 3 of us are over workers.

So do I wanna have a computer monitor up while I'm washing the dishes? I don't I don't know. What about you? Do you think it'll cause even more overworking potentially? Or I think we're all over workers anyway, so it doesn't matter for us 3.

We're already past the point of saving. Yeah. What about for others?

Speaker 0: I mean, I don't think you can you can just make it convenient. You know? Like, the one thing that I wanted to do, like, maybe 2 years ago, I was gonna get, my cousin one of those headsets because you could both sit, like, front row at an NBA game and talk to each other like we were next to each other. You know what I mean? But, like, if you could all create a virtual environment workplace that's ideal and you could mix it with your home.

You know what I mean? Like, you could, in a sense, maximize someone's output and make them to be comfortable. And not maybe because that's probably the best idea, but more about because, like, you know how, like, with with life or with future, it always leans one way and leans the other way. And, like, I see, like, what I went through as the job hopping phase, And I feel like companies are just gonna be tripling down on, like, longevity of employment again because we went so far left. We need to go right and readjust.

And a lot of our issues could just be solved. We just didn't have to keep getting people over and over again.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Do you see that as a problem now that you're climbing into leadership that that VR could solve? You know, you I think it is easy to job hop when you don't feel that connection with your coworkers or with your leaders. But if somebody if you're wearing a VR headset and somebody comes and whispers in your ear, you know, you turn around and there's a person virtually there, do you think that could solve that that kind of ease of job hopping when you just don't feel like you you anybody would miss you?

I don't know what the right way to put it, but I do feel like there's a just a disconnect with feeling a part of your business if you don't inter interact with other people.

Speaker 0: I I I will say this. I don't know how VR VR might help. You know what I mean? Just because you would be around people, and I think that always is a is a positive. But with, with job hop, at least if I could give any advice while we're on here, and if anyone is listening to this, I've been in a pleasurable situation where I've been on a team where it's like, hey, you're groomed for for executive leadership.

Right? Like, we know that you're gonna get there. We're putting you on a team. Everyone's gonna be moved up. I've also contract in positions where I I I was working to groom a certain individual who was going to move up the corporate ladder.

Like, they had already picked them out to be a CEO, and they just didn't know. I I and and it's like it bewilders you because you asked them, like, does he know or does she know? They're like, no. We haven't told him. I was like, don't you think?

And they'll they'll end up leaving, and you'll be like, oh, man. You guys lost a a CEO you were grooming. Like, that's kinda big. You know? Like, I mean, but since you didn't tell them, I guess, no one knows no loss.

But I think that the the thing that could just is just timing. You know? Like, I think a lot of people need to be more transparent about, like, hey, what they want out of their career and where they wanna be. And then, like, also companies should be like, hey. We see you as a leader.

Like, one of the one of the greatest losses I ever saw. Like well, I mean, I did it too, and I was the same person, so I understood why they left. But I was like, man, looking back, you probably shouldn't have left. But it's just something that you learn. You know?

I mean, you learn with time, and I just think the industry's gonna change just because it's been this way for so long that just the yin and yang effect of anything. Just the universal law is like, if everyone's leaving, then there has to be a period of time of us. We might not get Rolexes again, but, I mean, they're gonna want us to stay around.

Speaker 2: We can try and get Rolexes. But yeah. So so what do you what do you think? You mentioned one really good point that somebody else has mentioned in one of these podcast recordings too, letting letting leadership know your intentions of wanting to climb the corporate ladder. So what would be some good advice that you give having, you know, done these types of things yourself as well?

But for those engineers who would be listening or those who want to get into engineering and would eventually want to climb as well, What's some good advice that you would give, you know, people who are wanting to climb the the corporate ladder or the the leadership ladder?

Speaker 0: Well, one one thing I would always tell anyone is variety is this is spice of life is variety, however you wanna put it. So experiencing everything is key. Right? Like, if you don't know what you've tasted, then you don't know what you want. So early in your career, like, for example, I did front end.

I did back end. I did data engineering. I tried to start my own company. I did a little sales. I was in recruiting for a while.

Like, I did, the drawing. I did the UX for a while. It's like knowing and and then once you know how to do everything, not to say you should know, but once you have that that skill, like, you can kinda tail you you 1, you can see where it all leads to, but more importantly, you can find out what it is that you like. So I think once you find out what you like, like, for example, I was a data engineer, and I'd go to data visualization, like, front end meetings. And, like, my managers would say, hey, Ali.

Why are you in this meeting? And I'd be like, well, I'm working on a side project doing data visualization. Anyway, I figured what's what's the harm of it. And if I know how the 2 need to to speak, then that's a win win. So just going out of your going out of your way, I mean, if you're young enough and you don't have a family or anything or any obligations, and we're still in the office, showing up early is always a good thing.

One of the tricks that someone told me, and it was my sales career, was always work a Saturday. You know? Come in and work a Saturday because if you work a Saturday, you know, a, you pick up everything. You might be able to relax a little bit during the week, but no one can get rid of the guy who works on Saturdays. And everyone remembers the call on Saturday.

For for moving's perspective, we just got a so Citrix, we got, Tony, Tony and Matt, but Tony's been, just because he just spoke recently. He's talked about how he transitioned from coding to executive leadership. And, really, it was it was more about just aligning yourself with a business or understanding, especially if you're an engineer. Like, when you're young, you think like, hey. I gotta solve this.

This is the most important thing in the world. You know, like, no one else can solve this. I'm gonna do this in such a creative way. You know how you you think, like, you're this god complex that comes from solving a few engineering things. But then when you you advance a little bit, you you can kinda take a step back and look at the whole picture, and it's like, it's not it's about the business.

Because if the business doesn't succeed, you don't have your engineering job. So how can you improve the business? Is there something you could do to improve our business, our organization? Could you open source something? Could you, like, have a conversation with an outside company like yours, you know, that's doing some very interesting things in the industry to put our name out there?

Just just other ways you can add value because if you're gonna separate yourself, it's gonna be like, the power of 3, like, your your your personality, your work ethic, and then that extracurricular killer stuff that you're doing on the side that also presents that. Oh. How?

Speaker 2: So what about people like myself who work Saturday Sunday? You're saying no one can ever get rid of me.

Speaker 0: Well, I mean, you just love it, man, and we're lucky enough to find something we love.

Speaker 2: Yeah. So you're really

Speaker 0: mad about that.

Speaker 2: True.

Speaker 1: Yeah. That is that is so true. I think John and I both have, you know, sort of nights and weekends projects as well. So, as as do, I think, most engineers. Right?

Like, most engineers we talk to have nights and weekends project. We did another interview with someone who had done some DJ work and, and did, like, karaoke stuff. So, it's it's really cool to see you know, you do get to express some of the creativity that you can't put towards work that doesn't have a fit there. You could still express in another way, right, through music, through art, through, you know, coding on a personal project. Do you have anything like that that you exercise those skills with?

Speaker 0: Well, right well, I mean, I shouldn't say it. Right now, I like to trade stocks a lot, because I see it as, like, a nonsolvable problem. You know? Because it's all math, but it's just based upon time series and where you're at and, like, if the patterns recreate. One of the best engineers I ever worked with, he was a an he made swords.

So he's a fire. A fire maker. So I

Speaker 2: was like, so what do you how

Speaker 0: I was like, did you did you get that signed by Randy Jackson?

Speaker 2: What a what a hobby.

Speaker 0: Yeah. But it's like, you you know, you meet people who are like to take her. You'll find out all types of interesting, hobbies. So it's definitely something to to identify for or to ask like, hey. Are you working on these side projects?

Like, that's back in the day. That's how I'd identify a winner.

Speaker 2: It's funny you mentioned that because my my brother-in-law, who also is in technology, he's been in it longer than me. He used to make iron lamps, so lamps with pipes, and then there was a lamp at the top out of it. But that's how he met Steven Tyler, and he met a bunch of random people because he worked on this random side project. So it's kinda cool that somebody you knew made swords.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I met somebody that somebody that I was in a band with started creating some art and then started creating, like, tapestries, these really complex tapestries. And all of a sudden, he gets a call from, like, Kanye's team to, like, design some, like, lion chain necklace. And all of a sudden, he's, like, the biggest thing in the in the rap and hip hop world because he's just like the go to artist for that kind of stuff, designing all these huge, you know, 10 foot tall tapestries for these guys' homes and stuff. So yeah, I mean, yeah, it's it's pretty cool.

Speaker 0: 2 notes on 2 notes on that. 1, like, from my other big career after this, I realized that musicians, given the right background, they're always great salesman because they're always great communicators. They always have a great network. And it's like they can take you in the fun environment, the professional. So that's always one thing.

And then 2, just for anyone like, hey. Just do whatever you like to do. You know? Like, I mean, this guy got paid to make tapestries. You know?

Imagine you get paid to do something you love to do. You know? You should always pursue that. And, eventually, you know, you pursue it long enough, it'll be a niche.

Speaker 2: I think we need to keep track, Pedro, of how many times music gets brought up on these conversations because music gets brought up. People who love to play music. I think it's a No. Engine it's an engineering trait. People just love to play different things.

So

Speaker 1: Yeah. It's also it's also just math. I mean, music is is art, in a way, but it's it's mostly just math and chords and melody, and, it all just comes down to numbers. So I think the engineering mind does really well with that. I mean, we've got a number of musicians.

We say it all the time. We've got a number of musicians here at, at Directus, and we've got I mean, I just this morning, I was on a call with with a prospect who is had a bunch of guitars in the background, so it's always cool to see.

Speaker 0: Yeah. Matt was giving away the secret on LinkedIn about stop at time just replaying the same song. And Yeah. I I will say I once worked with, I once worked with, I don't even know what it's called, but, like, a PhD in music. And they also were a a coder, and it was just like, to them, it made so much sense, like, the the synchrony between the 2.

But to me, I just was like, I like listening to opera while I code.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah. We, we're coming out with a just a series of videos with lo fi music because I I love listening to Oh, I love that. Jazz or music just on the side while I'm working. I think that's a very common thing. Opera is good.

A symphony. You can't beat a good symphony. So

Speaker 0: No. Something with pain. Something just with, like, like, or classical. I've been listening to lofi Tupac. Not gonna lie.

Speaker 1: Lofi Tupac. Where can I find that? YouTube. Awesome. I saw I saw they did, I don't know if you've seen on YouTube.

There's a series where a guy takes, Super Mario 64 sounds and recreates entire albums. So he took, like, one of the Radiohead albums and used recreated the whole album with just the sound bank of Super Mario 64. And he's done it with a number of classic albums like Nirvana, and, it's it's pretty pretty interesting. Sweet. Yeah.

How random. People have a lot of time on their hands. But yeah.

Speaker 0: No. You brought up, like, old video games. I remember my very first startup. It, like, was my internship, and I used to play Zelda. Right?

Because I was always into video games. I played Zelda for, like, 12 years just to beat it. I remember, like, how hard it was. 1st day 1st week. Yeah.

We, speed play Zelda. Like, the record was, like, 22 minutes. I said, golly.

Speaker 2: Yeah. There's so many side quests. You have to do all the side quests.

Speaker 0: I don't know how they beat it that quick, but it's just funny to say, like, at least I I don't know how long we have, but, like, hey. If you're not into tech, you should still get into tech because everything is tech. And that's how I benefited so much, and that's why psychology was so beneficial for me, as I've explored my direct career. Mhmm. Yeah.

Speaker 2: That that's awesome. As we start to wrap up, I'd love to under I'd love to learn about real briefly, you know, what are what are your goals? And do you see yourself you talked about grooming a CEO or someone who is going to be that. You know? What what are your end goals?

Where would you like to see yourself, you know, climbing more into leadership, getting more into an individual contributor role, both? You know, I guess, what are what are your goals?

Speaker 0: My goals really, lately has been just, like like, trying to find people who are like me, younger, you know, and just give them everything that I've picked up along the along the journey just to make a lot of people's journey shorter. And I've come to realize, like, so I've had a privilege of working at Stitch Fix and also 8451, which was big on, like, women led organizations or, like, women involvement and, you know, like, you know, team involvement. It's just a diversity of a team in general. And it's like there's several problems in tech. I mean, like, we've we've proven, I think, that anything's solvable.

The the problem now is like, hey. Do we have the, like, let's say, the dynamic the the demographics to create all problems? Because once we create the problems, then we can create solutions. So it's just more of for me right now, I'm just trying to I'm I'm most interested in getting more people into tech, that look and don't look like me. Just just so, you know, like, well, for 1, I don't know what else they're gonna do.

But for for for 2, you know, like, it's not as hard as you would think. You know? Like, it it's not. It's really just solving puzzles. It's just we make it difficult because we like to be elitist.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. That's really good point.

Speaker 0: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Does it require 9 computer monitors to be as good as you?

Speaker 0: I mean Or 12.

Speaker 2: Some of these Just like you gonna be better.

Speaker 0: Just like in monopoly, man. Like, it's all about real estate, man. And the more screen real estate you got, the better.

Speaker 2: Yeah. So it sound I

Speaker 0: after you. My bad. My bad.

Speaker 2: I I was gonna say it sounds like you need the VisionPRO from Apple coming out because in your whole you're everywhere you look, you can have screens.

Speaker 1: You just loop around in a chair and see screens all over you. Right?

Speaker 2: Or you're you're in Vegas. Just go to the sphere and put all your monitors on the sphere.

Speaker 0: Yeah. The the the, ironically enough, the one jealous, the the the most jealous I've ever been as a developer. We had a, we had a guy who you could tell he had it. You know? Like, you can just see it.

Like, you can just see it. But he only worked on one one screen, and I had to pair a program with him. And it was just like, man, how do you do this? But he had the advantage because it's like, sometimes I will not be able to work if I don't have a bunch of monitors, but he could work anywhere at any time. So just go camping on this monitor, and it's like so it's like there's it's like everything, man.

There's wind and there's plus and losses about the whole monitor con conversation.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, awesome. I think I think it came across in this conversation, your real passion for engineering, and that's why you've gotten into it, but also your passion for people. So for for people who are listening, you know, how can they follow you? Where can they get in contact with you if they wanna get in contact with you?

Is it LinkedIn or other things as well? Let let people know

Speaker 0: where you're at. I usually just use LinkedIn to be quite honest with you. I have a YouTube, but I don't really do anything on it. It's just more for me to play around with. I've been playing with the algorithm on both of them.

But it would just be LinkedIn. Just, I think it's just Ollie Payne. LinkedIn slash Ollie hyphen Payne, a l I hyphen p a y n e. But, you know, I'm focusing on those 2, man. I'm not gonna venture out too much.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Well, we have little time we have little time for extra even projects, but so it's interesting that you even do algorithms. But, I think I can I think I can speak for Pedro? This has been a fantastic conversation.

I feel like every conversation we have for this podcast is almost completely different, and yours was more so around kind of compassion for people and compassion for engineering. So I think we we both greatly appreciate the time, and we'll put your contact info in the the description, but definitely think that people can find some some good tidbits from what you've said today. So definitely appreciate the time.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, hey.

Speaker 0: Hey. I appreciate talking to both of you, and, hey, they have a good product too.

Speaker 2: Well, hey. You guys have good clothes. So if people need clothes, check out Stitch Fix.

Speaker 0: Hey. Win win. Love the plugs. Appreciate it.